Thread: Dual Nationality

I was recently asked how come I have Dual Nationality.
Actually it's triple, I have 3 Passports.....Irish, British and USA.
The reason is simple - I never gave any of them up.
I've renewed all 3 since I became a US Citizen. I need to renew my British one while I'm in London next month.
Most Countries require that you deliberately swear an oath to renounce your Citizenship.
Quote:
The U.S. requires that "A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer, in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and sign an oath of renunciation".

My Irish Passport came in handy when I went to Bosnia Hercegovina.
All the Americans I was with had to line up and get a Visa, I didn't need one.
And I was the only one who got a smile from the guy on the Passport desk!

I found this information on Immigration Direct

Q: Do Foreign Citizenship Oaths Strip you of Previous Citizenships?
A: In general, no, although some countries (such as the U.S. but not Canada or Australia) have verbal oaths that state that all former citizenships are relinquished, there are few (if any) modern cases in which this has happened to dual citizens. Most citizenship oaths are historical and have little legal power. In general, most countries that allow dual citizenship require very specific acts for you to relinquish your citizenship, and routine verbal oaths delivered in a foreign country are rarely considered valid.

Countries Which Allow Dual Citizenship:

Bangladesh, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, Cyprus, Egypt, El Salvador, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, France, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Latvia, Lebanon, Lithuania, Macedonia, Malta, Mexico, New Zealand, Pakistan*, Portugal, Serbia and Montenegro, South Africa*, Spain (only in certain cases), Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Tonga (only in certain cases), Turkey, United Kingdom, United States of America, Western Samoa.

Thats fascinating, but what are the main benefits of having all 3.
And the cost now has gone up considerably since i last renewed mine
and your x 3. £100's
Are they cheaper to renew in the USA & Ireland.

I also now have dual nationality, both the Uk and also Australia. I wouldn't want to give up either.

For one - travelling on an Australian passort and returning to Australia you don't have to que for hours at immigration - Bonus!

I also think it will come in handy when travelling to certain countries when going aborad with work either way.

Tim

The necessity of having 3 passports seems pretty extravagant. The renewal costs alone are almost prohibitively pointless, and unless one travels the world regularly, seems no point.
As fas as dual UK/US goes, yes it's handy not to have to worry about being turned away at the point of entry to the US, but then again I don't actually know of anyone on a Greencard that has no criminal problems here in the US being turned away for no reason.
In my experience, the US citizens line often moves as slow or slower than the others because there's usually only one or two gates open for the US citizens line on re-entry, where there's a dozen for the tourists... just the same at LGW too for UK and Eu citizens. Anyway, it's an airport, we learn to deal with it don't we? lol
Not having to deal with the immigration service every 10 years to renew a greencard? Well yeah, but it is only once every 10 years and is over in a matter of minutes, so not a big deal.
I'm really not bothered about voting either, so there's no real advantage in that respect to me.

Disadvantage? That would definately be having to fill a US tax return in for life no matter where in the world you live, and having possible extra tax to pay. Maybe that's because I hate giving money away unnecessarily. lol

Originally Posted by Andy Chapman

Are they cheaper to renew in the USA & Ireland.

No. It actually works out more expensive for the UK one if you have to renew it from within the USA.

Originally Posted by purple

The necessity of having 3 passports seems pretty extravagant.

What it comes down to is personal preference.
I didn't set out to get 3 Passports, I got them at different stages of my life, and just renew them when due.
They each last 10 years, and expire about 2 years apart.
As for the cost, I just worked it out.

The cost of renewal for a UK Passport is 72 pounds.
Irish Passport is 72 Euro.
US Passport is 100 dollars.

For all 3, a total of 212 pounds for 10 years = 21 pounds per year….which is peanuts.

I always use my US Passport & military ID when leaving and entering the US.
When I get to the UK or Ireland, I look for the shortest line and use the appropriate Passport.
We have copies of our passports in a fireproof box along with insurance policies,
birth certificates etc.
I was just reading about the new UK Identity Card, which will cost 30 pounds alone or a total of 93 pounds for ID Card and Passport.
New UK Passports now have biometric data embedded in a chip.
If you apply in person, there will be your fingerprint and iris map in the microchip.
Identity and Passport Service - the official government website for passports and identity cards information
The card is more convenient to carry. It is good for travel within Europe,
and as proof of Identity.
Here's the blurb: About ID cards and the National Identity Scheme

There is a good downloadable brochure on ID Theft:
https://www.identitytheft.org.uk/

I became a US Citizen not just to get a Passport, but for many reasons.
As the wife of a US Citizen and Military retiree, I had other things to consider.......what would my situation be if my husband died? What if our marriage broke up? I have rights and benefits which I would lose if I were not a citizen.

Ah yes, Taxes…..inevitable wherever you live, but I'm finding out you can minimize them legally if you get the right advice.
It's not just US Passport holders but green card holders too who have to report worldwide income. The UK and US have mutual reporting.

Here's the quote from the IRS website:
"If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, you must report income from all sources within and outside of the U.S. This is true whether or not you receive a Form W-2 Wage and Tax Statement, a Form 1099 (Information Return) or the foreign equivalents. See Publication 525, Taxable and Nontaxable Income for more information.
Additionally, if you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate and gift tax returns and for paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are living in the U.S. or abroad."

All very interesting reading indeed

Definately personal preference.
Maybe you didn't really understand my way of looking at it though?
I suppose that I just kind of equate paying 3 lots of passport renewal charges to having 3 cars sitting in my garage on which I would pay 3 lots of tax and insurance for 11 months of the year, just so that I could choose which one I drove for the other one month. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks like that. But to me, 300 dollars is 300 dollars, and if I could keep that cost down, then I would, especially when the economy is so tight.
I suppose I can't really see the advantage of paying out for an Irish passport at all, especially when they are effectively just an EU citizen now like citizens of the UK are, so that confuses me.

I would take my chance for an extra 10 minutes in the passport line lol. After 8 hours on the plane an extra 5 or 10 minutes in a line that is as long as it's going to be would make no real difference to me. lol
When I came back into the US last 2 times, it actually took me longer in the USC passport control line than it was taking people in the visitors line, they were getting through quicker because there were more inspection gates open on the visitors lines, and of course as I was returning into the US, I didn't have the choice to be able use the "visitors" line. The time taken through LGW on the way into the UK was about comparable in speed, for Non EU citizens Vs. EU citizens line.

Re the tax though, I'll clarify what I was meaning so that other people aren't confused by what's being said.
It's a minefield, but generally it is agreed that the best way of avoiding the mines are not to become a US citizen if it's solely just to have a US passport and the freedom of movement to allows you to return, if you have no family there and no real intention of actually residing there permanently in the future.

US citizens do have to file a US tax return to the US IRS annually regardless of whether they actually live in the USA permanently, or whether they live overseas. Whereas a UK citizen living as an expat in the US does not have to file a UK tax return, just one to the US. One form versus two forms. A UK citizen greencard holder that no longer lives permanently in the USA has no tax obligation to the US for earnings made outside it.

A lot of people who are eligible do apply for US citizenship before they leave the US solely so they can return to their own country and have the freedom to go back to live in or visit the USA if they decide to so. By doing that they then become liable for their yearly filing of US tax returns and possible taxes resulting from their overseas earnings from then onwards, even if they live in the UK for the rest of their life. lol My opinion on that is that it's not that good of a deal.

If you live permanently in say the UK, legally paying less tax Uncle Sam's IRS by getting the right advice, (which of course you pay for too) or having to fill the return in, is not (in my opinion) as good as having to pay NO tax the US at all if you earn a lot. lol I'd rather pay none!

Like I said I'm just really careful with my money and maybe a lot of people don't think like me, but I don't really want to give my money away to the various different government departments of a lot of different countries if I can avoid it, especially when those countries are ones that I don't even live in. lol.

Have a good day.

"The U.S. Government recognizes that dual citizenship exists, but does not endorse it as a matter of policy because of the problems that it may cause. Dual citizens owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country."

Dual Citizenship, Us Dual Citizenship, Us Canada Dual Citizenship, Dual Citizenship Usa, American Canadian Dual Citizenship

Originally Posted by purple

..........A lot of people who are eligible do apply for US citizenship before they leave the US solely so they can return to their own country and have the freedom to go back to live in or visit the USA if they decide to so. By doing that they then become liable for their yearly filing of US tax returns and possible taxes resulting from their overseas earnings from then onwards, even if they live in the UK for the rest of their life. My opinion on that is that it's not that good of a deal.

It depends....we have to weigh up the pros and cons of our situation.
I agree for most UK Citizens it might not make sense.
For us it's a bit different.

Before I explain, I must tell you my first experience with US Immigration was 1982 when I came on holiday with Dave to meet his parents for the first time. We landed at JFK in New York, he went through the US Citizens line, I got in the very long Non-US line.
They gave me such a grilling I was almost in tears. I told them Dave was on leave from the Navy to visit his parents, they asked where he was. Finally they sent someone to find him and he showed his leave papers.
After that, he used to pull me through the US line after him. I never want to go through that again!

Some background: I have a good friend from London who helped me in my business in Spain. After I left Spain, she also married a US Navy guy and now lives in Virginia. I've been in FL since 1992. If married to a US citizen, the waiting period for Citizenship is 3 years. During a phone conversation in 1998, she asked me if I had become a US Citizen yet. I said no, didn't see the point as I had my green card. She pointed out the advantages, and told me to go to the JAG Office (Judge Advocate General) on any Military Base and get some advice.
So I did, and they spelled it all out for me. Without going into detail, there were more advantages than disadvantages to becoming a US citizen.
I got citizenship in 2000.
Do we, as a couple, get more out of the USA than we give? Definitely.
Although you could say my husband already paid for it, by putting his life on the line for 22 years, and getting wounded in Vietnam. Many of his friends did not survive to claim their benefits.

Benefits for a Military retiree include health care for life (there is a small monthly fee until you are 65, and prescriptions cost $3 per month). Index-linked Retirement pay, which my husband has received since he was 40.
Free "Space Available" flights anywhere in the world. Use of any Base facilities, including tax-free shopping. Free legal services from the JAG on Base. Use of Lodging on base, which is like a hotel but cheaper.

Retirees who live overseas get the same, with the exception that health facilities may not be available.
When I work as a damage inspector after Hurricanes etc, I have often used nearby Military Bases for safe accommodation.

Story of a UK family who moved here:-
I found them a viable business (when I was a Business Broker) and they are happy in Cocoa Beach.
They have 2 teenagers, who are only covered by his E-2 Visa until they are 18.
He and his wife have applied for citizenship as the children do not want to go back to the UK.
He knows about the IRS situation, but reckons he has more to gain this way.

As for my Passports, what I was thinking of doing is getting just a British ID Card instead of renewing my Passport. I am not giving up my Irish Passport, and I'd be an idiot to give up my US Passport.

Chacun à son goût!